I stole this title from Nicholas in my last post. The Christians he was referring to were well beyond the level of the guy in this post. I personally know this guy. He attends a conservative, Bible-believing church where the pastor preaches 55-minute sermons and is seriously trying to mature the people in attendance. He attends regularly and sits through these sermons.
Maybe his anger got the better of him or something, but his comment is just really disappointing. It’s not the first time people who regularly attend this church have made this same basic error. I know the pastor can’t be blamed for every single individual remaining immature, but the church as a whole is very immature, and this guy is just an indication.
I started a Facebook group with mostly people from this church and the purpose was to try to come up with ways to apply Scripture to the real world and not just worry about ourselves all the time. It has been a complete and utter dud (as I’m rereading this the last paragraph in this post is haunting me). Nevertheless, I keep trying to post things that might provoke some conversation. Because that’s the point we’re at. These people would look at me like I’m crazy if I actually tried to get them to do some of the things I’m thinking about or have been involved in. These folks and I are definitely not on the same page, and so we are still at the conversation level. So, between once a month and once a week, I post something.
I adapted this post to Facebook format and posted it there a few days ago. I got this response:
“Judging and gossip is sinning as well.”
I think it’s safe to say he was accusing me of judging and gossip. I’m not sure how it’s gossip to comment on a public Youtube video. And I’m certainly guilty of judging. Of course, judging righteously isn’t a sin and is something we all do dozens if not hundreds of times per day.
In fact, when this guy accused me of judging, he was judging me. He actually was sinfully judging me, because he was using a double standard–aka hypocrisy. He doesn’t know that there is righteous judgment and he’s not capable of recognizing hypocritical judgment.
Of course, the problem is that this guy clearly hasn’t read the New Testament, much less the Old Testament. He’s sat through hours of preaching and has been a Christian for at least four years that I know of. He’s been a newborn Christian who hasn’t learned the basics of the basics of Scripture.
If I was his pastor I would be shocked and ashamed and reevaluating everything I do. If the pastor is honest, this guy isn’t an exception, but the general rule for the level of knowledge of his congregation. And those who are the exception and know more about the Bible are still not actually accomplishing very much for the kingdom and neither is the church as a whole.
Of course, this is what their pessimistic eschatology teaches will happen. So when it happens, they expect it to happen. They don’t have an expectation that they are going to accomplish great things for God or that the gospel will actually defeat Christ’s enemies. But surely, the pastor thinks that a guy sitting through hundreds of his sermons will not still be completely retarded.
At some point, we (and I’m including myself), have to examine the fruits of our efforts to see whether the results are fruitful or thorny. The fruits of that church are thorns and they need to change. We need to be semper reformanda. I’m trying something new for my church situation, and I’m keeping an eye on whether it bears fruit, whether I and my family bear fruit through it. If not, we have to try something else.
There is so much quality in these comments on Facebook. This might get long, but I want to compile a nice place to read through this in future months and years. It would be hard to find on Facebook again, and that’s not really even a good way to read comments in my opinion. I’ve put a next to the names of the commenters who are knocking it out of the park. Here it is.
ORIGINAL POST R.C. Sproul – Postmillennialist
John MacArthur – Dispensational Premillennialist
Voddie Baucham – Amillennialist
These three men represent(ed) all three of the major positions and yet were great friends. It should serve as a reminder that eschatology should not hinder relationships with other brothers, rather it should spur us on.
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NICHOLAS
All three are pietists, and receive(d) a lot of money while doing very little if anything for Christ’s kingdom, so they have much more in common than we at first glance might think
#DatChurchHustle
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JEREMY
Nicholas, you are saying Sproul did very little for Christ’s kingdom. Are you kidding me? Not evenly remotely close to the truth. I wouldn’t speak ill of MacArthur or Baucham either
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JOSEPH
Jeremy, //Sproul did very little for Christ’s kingdom//? He did a great deal institutionally. He also created a great following who were kept busy by his ideas and so did not have as much time to go in worse directions. He was really good at arguing for theory. He was a great guy to have a beer with.
Beyond that the fruit of his and all 19th & 20th century ministry is an entire culture that went from professing Christ to finding the church and Sproul entirely irrelevant.
It’s hard to call such men great. We by following their charm instead of Christ have given a world to our children which now must rebuild from the ground up.
Let’s not follow them.
With the reformers, what we should be saying is turn the priests out and put them to work if they will not work let them beg for their bread. For their institutions have nothing to offer, except the dim mimicry of the church of Jesus Christ.
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RANDOM COMMENTS RESPONDING TO NICHOLAS’ FIRST COMMENT
“This is not a good take.”
“You should feel bad.”
“Yeah you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about”
“kind of trollish of you if you ask me.”
“#datignorancehustle”
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NICHOLAS
Pastor worshipers are the cutest little baby Christians you’ll ever meet. Didn’t mean to slow the idol production. Carry on.
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ELI
Nicholas, if believing that faithful expository preaching of the word, ministering to a congregation, and being an apologist for the Christian faith advances the kingdom of God makes one an idolatrous pastor-worshipper, than I too am one since I think all three lived their lives accordingly. Perhaps you’d care to elaborate on why you think they did little or nothing for the kingdom of God, and share with us what you think they should have done. All we’ve got so far is a statement of your opinion which can only be evaluated in terms of my knowledge and preconceptions until you share what yours are.
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NICHOLAS
Eli, Not knowing the difference between productive kingdom work, and regurgitation of the milk of the word decade after decade; and not being discerning enough to tell the difference between a real pastor, and making a career of the perpetual marketing of milk is what makes you a baby Christian and pastor worshiper.
BTW, I love RC Sproul. I listened to him and read his books for years. But he’s not a pastor, and he did next to nothing for the kingdom, and I do appreciate the popularization of Calvinism as much as any Calvinist.
JMac, on the other hand, responsible as he is for infanticide in CA, is not fit to untie the sandals of a pop teacher like Sproul. I doubt if JMac knows the Lord.
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JOHN
Nicholas, What do you believe is in fact the difference between productive kingdom work and regurgitation of the milk of the word? Could you also elaborate on John Macarthur and infanticide?
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NICHOLAS
John, we see in Hebrews 5 that spiritual meat is defined as the message and application of practical righteousness. A true pastor trains the moral senses of Christ’s sheep to discern good and evil in every area of life, to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. Low hanging fruit would be the Biblical doctrine of murder applied to infanticide. A little higher would be concepts like economics, money, banking, welfare, and taxation in general. A little more meaty would be law enforcement, immigration, due process and consistent application of criminal justice concepts like lex talionis and habeas corpus. Every area of life, really: art, science, health-care, math, everything! Men like RC Sproul and JMac and Voddie could never teach us to think Biblically about these matters presumably because nobody ever taught them (and so they never taught you), and if somebody did teach them, there’s just no money in it, so best for the prudent celebrity to keep quiet about issues that are just too meaty. Best to stick to TULIP and theoretical eschatology. Nothing too practical.
What is productive kingdom work, then? We are commanded to go out and take dominion, to press Christ’s crown rights into every area of life, to–on the basis of all authority being given to Him–go out and put all enemies under His feet.
The kingdom is entrepreneurial centered, because the properly functioning Body of Christ is gifts oriented, and many members will take many gifts to the world for every area of life, whether your gift is mechanics or engineering or culinary or healing, your business will springboard off your gifts. Since the greatest will be the greatest servants, entrepreneurship and wealth necessarily follow from kingdom mindedness. This is the Biblical prescription for subduing the nations.
For 1,800 years, the Church believed this, and they went out and conquered every area of life. The Church did not center on pastors. The Church was centered on manifold gifts, each relevant for the mission of the Church, and for the discipline of the nations.
Men like Sproul, JMac, and Voddie need to get real jobs, and discover productive gifts. Instead, they discovered a profitable racket, and their business is ever telling the Church milky truths which we should all get past within 60 days of converting to Christ, and they thus doom us to perpetual immaturity, salt without savor, lamps without light. Real pastors mature Christ’s people ala Ephesians 4. False pastors make careers on the back of a perpetually immature Church.
Regarding JMac and infanticide, I’m referring to the part he played in the Satanic persecution of Operation Rescue. For all we know, JMac is single handedly responsible for the persistence of child sacrifice.
When JMac’s deacon, Bob Vernon, chief of police, came to his “pastor” for counsel regarding what to do do with the Rescuers, Vernon was advised to use the Romans 13 sword to crush the rebels.
First hand witnesses to Vernon’s execution of JMac’s pastoral counsel include JOSEPH, John Cummins, et al. Here’s an excellent YouTube video documenting these facts.
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JOSEPH
Nicholas, yes I had several meetings with Bob explaining what we were doing and why. Bob “when I put on my blues I am the property of the state” Vernon was confirmed by his Pastor John MacSomething to use state authorized violence to crush those who would rescue the unborn.
The church sees work/career through entirely secular eyes.
Work is gaining sufficient Genesis 1:24-27 dominion over an area of creation to be able to use it to meet someone’s needs.
Payment is either directly trading such need-meeting or monetizing your excess and paying for it.
God designed societies to exist through such exchanges and gave His law to be the ethical structure of them.
The economy is merely the part of our human exchange system you can measure with money. But it is no less spiritual or divinely ordained than anything else we exchange.
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NICHOLAS
That’s precisely why RC, JMacSomthinOrTheOther, and Voddie are all pietists. Their religion is fundamentally distinct from our postmil optimism.
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JOSEPH
Eli, look, Nicholas gave some theoretical arguments which you should weigh carefully. But there is a single fact that is unmistakable:
Whatever Sproul et. al. and Great Leaders like them were doing, an entire civilization has been lost through their “ministry” and they and the organizations they represent are vilified and considered racists and abusers by most of society. I know I know it’s not fair. But it is reality. Whatever these Great Ones taught and lived it was not the world-changing salvation.
Time to follow Christ and leave the great ones on the shelf where they preferred to spend their lives.
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NICHOLAS
Joseph, This is exactly what needs to be said from Christ’s Church, and until this is the consensus of the Body of Christ, you and I know that only judgement can be expected. All we can do is be faithful voices in the wilderness. Praise God for you, dear brother, blessed of God.
On the testimony of two witnessesses…
If we do not bring JMac, the false shepherd, up on charges of his crimes, we are ourselves infidels. The very least we should do is call his conversion into question.
Working for the Secession of Fremont County from the Union
next to the names of the commenters who are knocking it out of the park. Here it is.
