The ROMANS 13!!!! crowd likes to say that illegal immigrants are breaking the law and it’s a sin to break the law.
Judgment begins in the house of God. Christians are supposed to judge, as long as they hold themselves to at least as high a standard as they hold others. Is the ROMANS 13!!!! crowd holding themselves to the same standard they hold immigrants to? Do they ever break the speed limit or fail to come to a complete stop? Have they ever texted while driving? Do they get a permit when they replace a water heater or do home improvement projects that require a permit? Do they carry a gun in places they shouldn’t and have all the proper permits? Do they report any profit they make when they sell something privately?
That crowd might say illegal immigration is a serious crime while speeding isn’t. I don’t see why that matters. Romans 13 makes no distinction. But even if it did, sneaking across the border is a misdemeanor but overstaying a visa is a civil infraction like a speeding ticket.
Even if someone keeps the laws perfectly themselves, the people committing the greater sin in this area is the government acting contrary to the Constitution, abusing immigrants and taking away our freedoms. The ROMANS 13!!!! crowd needs to be at least as passionate about holding government to the standard of Romans 13:3-4.
So ROMANS 13!!!! people need to seriously consider whether they’re hypocrites who are sinfully judging.
I’m always amazed at how people cannot see that Romans 13:3-4 place huge constraints on government. They constantly make the mistake of thinking that good and evil are defined by men. If you believe that, you’re not a Christian. Christians take their definition of good and evil from God alone. I want to post those two verses, though you should always read verses in context, so feel free to do that. And then, I will post a random guy’s comments about those verses where he misrepresents what it’s saying.
Romans 13:3-4: For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.
Here’s what this guy said about these verses: “Paul reinforces this point by asking, “Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval” (Romans 13:3). This does not mean law enforcement never errs, but it does establish its God-ordained function. Authority is meant to benefit those who obey the law and restrain those who do not” [emphasis mine].
Those verses say if you do good, you have nothing to worry about. It doesn’t say if you obey the law you have nothing to worry about. Verse 4 makes it even clearer. Wrongdoers are people who commit crimes according to God’s definition, and His wrath is on them. Government is His servant to carry out His wrath. Not the wrath of the state.
I thought it was interesting to see someone who seems to have almost subconsciously pervert God’s word. I think he was genuinely trying to interpret it correctly, but people just approach it with their own presuppositions and miss the point.
Many words have more than one definition. When people decry anarchy, they are usually talking about a loss of control and chaos. Specifically, when there is a lack of justice for criminals–where people can do whatever they want without consequence. Christians will cite Judges 21:25 as an example of this. It says, “In those days there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes.” A lack of criminal justice would be a big problem in Scripture.
There is a wide array of anarchists ranging from anarcho-communists to anarcho-capitalists. I only care to defend anarcho-capitalism. Before King Saul became Israel’s first king, Israel was ruled by the Lord. Human judges were in place to carry out criminal justice. Neighbors might hold trials and the witnesses in a death penalty trial were to be the first to throw the stones in a stoning. There were no prisons, no paid police, no king, no president. Only everyday people who were supposed to know God’s law. They didn’t even have an army. Formal judges even led Israel into battles, without authority to force people to join the army. If the people believed the war was unjust, they didn’t show up to fight. If they thought it was just, they knew God was fighting on their behalf.
That is anarchy–where there is no human authority to force anyone to do anything. No one to force you to pay taxes or force you to seek their permission to do something that isn’t sinful or get permission to do something that is sinful. The only control anyone has over someone is when they’ve criminally harmed someone else. Your neighbors and townspeople will make sure you are fairly tried and that your just sentence is executed. Israel at the time of the judges had no human rulers. It was an anarchy.
But if those who decry anarchy are worried that criminals aren’t receiving justice, that is exactly what we have in the United States right now. Sixty million babies have been murdered by abortion, and it’s perfectly legal. There is a mass slaughter going on; it’s just that it’s not happening where we can see it but in abortion clinics.
All people are commanded to repent and trust Jesus so that they will end up in heaven. The gates of heaven/New Jerusalem will remain open forever (Revelation 21:25). It’s hell that prevents people from leaving.
The whole analogy is false, but even if it were true, it’s not applicable. We know that government isn’t to harass people who aren’t committing a crime as defined by God (Romans 13:3-4).
How idolatrous can a Christian be before you have to doubt their salvation? The authority you use to determine right and wrong is your god. If the source of your morality is Jesus Christ, you’re a Christian and you are almost certainly a Christian and will go to heaven. If your moral authority is anything other than Christ, such as the U.S. Congress, then you’re not a Christian and you’re headed to hell. This conversation exposed this guy as an idolater.
Here’s the conversation:
Donald said this in response to an original post trying to apply Scripture to politics: More twisting of the scriptures to fit your social justice false gospel. A sovereign nation enforcing its immigration laws is not oppressing the poor. Your mind is just as twisted as your interpretation of scripture.
ME: Donald McGinnis by what standard do you discern what is a just or unjust law?
Donald says: God’s word is the standard, Hebrews 4:12.
ME: Good. Can you be more specific? How do you know if an immigration law is just or unjust?
Donald says: Romans chapter 13.
ME: Romans 13 teaches you that US immigration law is just or unjust?
Donald says: So, you didnt read it or is it that you’re just not very bright?
ME: If you’re saying that Romans 13 gives a blank check for governments to do whatever they want, that is the complete opposite of what it’s teaching. Romans 13:3-4 places strict limits on what government can do. But maybe you can explain it better.
Donald says: Governments make just laws as to who can enter the sovereign nation that they are. They have rules of entering according to their laws. Illegal aliens broke those laws and are now experiencing the consequences of their illegal actions. It’s really that simple. It’s just like your home. you determine who is welcome and who is not. If they break in, you call the police and they get arrested. No difference. Do you really have a problem with that?
ME: This exchange started by me asking you how you discern what a just or unjust law is. I don’t think you’ve answered clearly in regards to immigration. If I had to guess what you’re getting at so far, it seems you believe government can regulate immigration however it wants. Is that correct? How do you square that with Romans 13:3-4?
Donald says: You have nothing to teach anyone. And your opinions don’t make any sense. You are just another social justice libtard masquerading as a Christian who twists scripture and tries to apply those twisted scriptures to your false narrative. And yes, the govt which is our duly elected representatives does have the right and the authority to regulate immigration policy and laws, whether you like it or not. If you don’t like it, go move somewhere where your wacky imagined legal system actually exists.
ME: you’ve provided no scriptural basis for anything you’ve said. If you believe government determines good and evil, your god is the government. Thanks for the conversation.
————————————————————————————- So this guy thinks that Romans 13 means that government can do almost whatever it wants. It would be preposterous if I hadn’t heard that taught from more than one pulpit. Is the twisting of Romans 13 this way what is causing Christians to idolize the government? Would a campaign to teach the proper interpretation of Romans 13 help solve that? What would such a campaign look like?
Millions of American Christians have no idea who the real enemy of the kingdom of God is: the U.S. government.
They send their kids to the government for 8 hours per day for 13 years to be discipled by God-hating liberals in socialist-funded indoctrination centers. The kids learn that government giving people things and taking care of them is just fine. Spending more and more money and even government taking on debt and raising taxes to spend on schools is just fine.
When the local police don’t lift a finger to stop abortion in your city, Christians don’t bother to teach the cops that Scripture says that government’s only job is to carry out God’s wrath on evildoers (Romans 13:4).
When the federal government/the Federal Reserve print money and mail out checks causing rampant inflation, no pastor says anything from the pulpit. Rampant theft of the money in people’s savings via inflation is just fine, because Trump and Biden sent out checks I guess.
When government takes over the job of individuals and churches of charity and taking care of our parents and grandparents via socialist redistribution schemes (theft), we’re content to ignore our family members.
When a Republican is in office, even if it’s a whoremongering scumbag New York liberal who makes Bill Clinton look conservative, Christians call for loyal obedience to the government and even demand their children pledge allegiance to our wicked government thousands of times over the course of their socialist education.
“But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil” (Hebrews 5:14).
Christians are woefully unable to distinguish good from evil to the point that they unwaveringly support the biggest enemy of the kingdom of God.
I speak to a lot of Christians who don’t understand this. It seems so simple.
Here’s the premise:
Men don’t determine good and evil; God does. Christians are to advocate that government not harass people who aren’t sinning.
If I stated this in the context of gun control or something consistent with what Trump is teaching, Christians would agree. However I’ve been starting it in regards to immigration, and you should see how many fuses it blows.
The completely predictable response people have over and over is to quote Romans 13 and say everyone should obey the law. If you read what I said, you’ll notice that isn’t even really a response to what I said. I didn’t say anything about what immigrants should be doing. I said that Christians shouldn’t support the government when they are committing injustice.
If they can get move on from there, which they rarely can, the question would be: what is a just or unjust law? I could probably write a book on that where I would explain that justice is defined in the Old testament civil law and how it teaches that moving isn’t a sin. Fortunately for the little Facebook comment box, an essay isn’t required. I can use Romans 13, which they’ve often helpfully copy and pasted. Verses 3 and 4 say that those who do good have nothing to worry about and that those who commit a crime that earns them God’s wrath are to come under jurisdiction of human government.
Moving to a new country is not a sin, so how can men try to make it illegal? If men do try to make it illegal, it’s the job of Christians to teach the government that they have no right to make something that’s not a sin into a crime.
For a Christian to advocate for anything other than that reveals that they’re actually idolaters who think that men can define right and wrong.
I had this conversation on Facebook with a pastor, Kevin. What he believes and teaches is absolutely false. Here’s the conversation. His first comment is in response to me saying that anyone who votes in favor of taxation to fund a swimming pool is committing the sin of covetousness.
As a Christian, you might believe that you have a biblical duty to pay every dime you owe in taxes, and I have no problem with you if you believe that. I can see how you’d arrive at that conclusion.
However, Romans 13:4 gives government its mandate, which is to carry out God’s wrath on criminals as His Word defines criminality. They aren’t allowed to collect taxes for schools, roads, swimming pools, or anything other than criminal justice. That means any taxes they attempt to collect other than for criminal justice are theft.
My ending question was, “What is the biblical penalty for not paying taxes?” The answer is there was no penalty in ancient Israel under God’s law for not paying taxes. You not paying taxes was between you and God. It would have been a sin to not pay proper taxes. But there weren’t tax courts or people going to jail or receiving any other punishments for not paying their taxes.
So anytime the US government tries to force you to pay a tax you’d rather not pay, other than criminal justice, they are stealing from you. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t pay it, but it does mean the people participating in that theft will face God on Judgment Day.
Ellis Island closed this day, November 12, in 1954 with 12 million immigrants having passed through. Until 1924, it was mostly just a processing facility, with no limits to immigration. During that time, It is estimated that only about half of immigrants came through Ellis Island. The US-Mexico border was wide open. Mexicans and anyone (except Chinese) could freely cross the border and immigrate through that border without even being counted.
Men don’t define what is good and evil–not even by voting on it. Government’s only job is to carry out God’s wrath on evildoers (Romans 13:4). People who aren’t doing evil, are to be free from government interference. This godly government is juxtaposed to the government of the beast (Revelation 13:17) where government permission is required for even righteous activity such as buying and selling. Is the way you advocate for immigrants to be treated more in line with godly government or government of the beast?
There are sometimes when first amendment auditors do something a little awkward or cringy. There are times when they cuss a little more than I’d like. There are times when they are promoting a message I don’t want to see, much less my little girls to see. But that’s okay with me.
If you notice, most of them aren’t spreading a message. They aren’t handing out literature or referring people to websites. Their only message is that their activity is legal and protected by the Constitution.
Christians are the ones with a message to spread. We are to be spreading the gospel and teaching the nations to obey all that Christ has commanded and standing for our pre-born neighbors. I wish there were Christians everywhere boldly pushing legal envelopes in every town in this country. Until that becomes a reality, first amendment auditors are at least preserving these freedoms for eventual use by Christians, even if they’re unbelievers.
We know that cops don’t know the law or don’t care about the law. I suspect that many of them hate the people they’re supposed to be serving.
I used to stand on Main Street in front of bars on a weekend evening and try to have gospel conversations with people. Shortly after starting, the cops threatened to arrest me and my friend. According to the law, they were supposed to be protecting our right to free speech, not impeding it. I was shocked at the time at how ignorant the cops were. But no Christians were doing anything like that. That wasn’t even pushing the envelope. That was just free speech in a traditional public forum. Thankfully it worked out and our rights were vindicated after getting a civil rights attorney to send a threatening letter to the city council, city attorney, and police department. You can be doing perfectly legal activities and still be threatened with arrest.
Uneducated, hostile cops are an ongoing problem and we need people to stop blindly obeying unlawful orders and demanding that cops obey the law.
Working for the Secession of Fremont County from the Union
