I think this person hasn’t debated theonomy before, or thought much about these issues, but it is still an interesting discussion.
This person is a dispensationalist. I will admit I haven’t studied much about covenant theology, but the one thing I know is that dispensationalism is preposterous.
Rainy Day said:
I just sold my condo couple weeks ago. do I still have a right to that condo? No! In the beginning when God chose Abraham, the father of the Jews, he wanted a peculiar people to himself. He was their God, until they rebelled in the wilderness under Moses leadership. This is called the OT dispensation. the new dispensation is called grace. One of the scholar asked Jesus at one time, what is the greatest law among all the laws in the OT. Jesus said there are only 2, and on these two hang all the laws and prophets.
Moses laws: there were 10.
Jesus laws: Only 2.
1. you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and might.
2. you shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Hey, but check out Moses laws, and compare to Jesus laws, aren’t they the same? first 5 has to do with God, the last five has to do with men. Paul, John, James called them “royal laws”. the book of Leviticus is full of “laws”, call them civil or whatever. but the BIG TEN are called “moral laws”. these applies to every creature living in Gods universe!
If God were to run America today, we would end up just like the Jews, REBELLED!! rebelled because His laws were too restrictive, that is why God rewrote another contract and gave it to Jesus to sign it with His blood, its called GRACE(God’s Riches At Christ Expense)!
Loving God and obeying His moral laws is by choice. You have a choice to love God or reject Him. He is not holding a gun to your head!!
—————————————-
I said:
We are saved by grace through faith, and not of works. Yet, we still live under thousands of federal, state and local laws. What do these civil laws (mostly unjust) have to do with my salvation? If anything, they cause people to sin and hinder people from getting saved. Wouldn’t it be better to have perfect laws?
Concerning Jesus’ two laws, they were a summary of the law, and He was quoting Deut. 6 & Leviticus 19. To summarize something isn’t to replace the thing you’re summarizing, but to express it simply.
Also, the civil laws of Moses were case laws of the Ten Commandments–an explanation of them. If you want a thorough understanding of “You shall not murder,” read the case laws. How should murder be punished? If someone is killed accidentally, what should happen? If two men are fighting and one dies, is the guy guilty of murder? And many more questions.
We can have man’s laws, or we can have God’s laws.
—————————————-
Rainy Day said:
I was trying to say simply that we are no longer under the old covenant, but under the new covenant. It’s all there in the book of Hebrews. the ten commandments which include, thou shalt not kill are called “God’s Royal laws(the big ten) which Jesus indeed simplified them when He said, there are only two laws, love God and love your neighbor. Man’s laws are Gods laws, and we are commanded by Paul of Tarsus to follow them too because they are the law of the land put there by God!
—————————————-
I said:
Jesus said, “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:17-19).
We are under a new covenant for our salvation. But the law is an expression of God’s character. To ignore it (if that’s what you’re saying) is to miss the point. It is still valuable.
Your surface-level interpretation of Romans 13:1-7 contradicts the rest of Scripture. When Paul was executed was Rome acting as an “avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil”?
—————————————-
Rainy Day said:
Yes, I know. so what do you do with these verses in Hebrews?
1. Hebrews 4:9,
2. Hebrews 8, the whole chapter explains in detail what Jesus sacrifice means. When Jesus was talking in the verses you mentioned above, he was talking before His crucifixion! a sacrifice once and for all! Christians are confused because they don’t understand covenants! When He said, “it is finished”, it means its done! A peace treaty thats based on his blood which is more valuable than animals blood. The blood not only forgives sins, it also restores whatever we lost in the garden of eden because of adam choice! the grace dispensation is so much better than the law dispensation.
—————————————-
I said:
If a cop pulls you over for speeding, do you tell him you don’t have to pay the ticket because you’re under grace? We’re not talking about salvation. We’re talking about the laws of the land. Do you prefer God’s law or man’s law?
—————————————-